Ep 7x19 discussion

J_A · 2009-04-21 08:34:26

I haven't seen it yet, but I thought I'd open the topic for it. should be seeing it by tomorrow.

J_A · 2009-04-23 21:19:53

I only now, an hour ago, made myself watch the latest episode. I knew I was in for a lot of pain, and since I had an interview Wed morning for a job I really wanted, I didn't want to distract myself from it, and then, yesterday, I got the job and was just way too happy about that to put myself through the inevitable torture of watching 24 this week. And boy, it was painful. Gut-wrenching, really. Yes, I'm even now having to swallow hard in order to keep the bitterness in the back of my throat from rising, I have to try and hold back tears that are on the verge of falling.

The Tony we knew is dead. This episode sealed that point of view. I'm in physical pain about it, even though yes, it is just a show. A TV show. But there's no other show that has ever moved me in the ways 24 has. And yes, Evil Tony is hot. Bad 'n' hot. Although I've kinda had a bit of a hard time to feel attracted to him this ep, the hotness was a bit overshadowed by his deeds.

It's not that I cannot understand him turning, going over to the dark side, I do, and Ivanhoe, you've described the Why and How pretty well: yes, it's very plausible, it's "organic" - though maybe not as organic as organically grown strawberries. But then again, organic strawberries don't steal bioweapons and blow up FBI agents.
I apologize if this didn't make you chuckle, but you can't say I didn't try.

Where Tony has gone during this season is indeed in character, it is just.... I never wanted to see him go there. Admittedly, though, it's hot, and it makes for very, very good TV. And now, Jack's will to live will (most likely) be restored. he has a reason to keep on fighting, keep on living, and go after Tony. After all, he did promise him to get him and kill him himself, and we all know Jack's a man of his word. And I'm pretty confident he'll change his mind about Kim, too. Now there's a reason for him to go through with the treatment (will they REALLY try to give him stem-cell therapy in the five hours we have left???)

Anyway, trying to look at this objectively, it's true, Tony has killed dozens of FBI agents now, but they're still agents, and as such, not civilians. So as such, he's still the Tony we knew, the Tony that wouldn't sacrifice civilians to get revenge, and I think the writers will keep him that way. And I'm also still thinking that what he's doing isn't just because of the money, cause that, too, isn't what Tony's about - despite what he told Jack in FBI interrogation all those episodes ago. Maybe the metamorphosis of The Tony We Knew simply included him overcoming his reservations at actually going through with Revenge. back when he last saw him, in 5x13, he wasn't able to take a life of a defenseless man, even though Henderson had killed Michelle and was quite definitely one of the Bad Guys. But isn't it possible for him to harden, to close himself up in a tough shell, to build a wall around him and his feelings and now actually be able to do whatever he sees necessary to achieve his goal? As much as the Early Tony lover in me is reluctant to admit it, yes, it's possible, and credible. That isn't to say I wanted him to stay the same guy. Had he stayed the same, had there been no development, he'd have been dead a long time ago. That's what makes 24 so special, the ongoing change in characters, their being in a new place each season, and not being stuck in the same loop, year after year after year after year. It's what keeps it interesting for us, the writers and the actors.

But it doesn't mean this whole Rogue Tony storyline is exactly filling me with hope - I'd enjoy this a hell of a lot more if I knew that this wouldn't end in his death. I mean, if I really, really, knew it. As in, once Season 7 is over, and I have the DVDs, and then pick them up again and watch the season, knowing that Tony wouldn't fall prey to Jack Bauer. But it'll be another month until we know for sure.

So, until then, I'll have to keep fearing the worst - which is quite honestly preventing me from enjoying the season as much as I could. I truly hate the idea of him dying this time around, but the whole Tonyline (R) (Tony + storyline) so far is not too far fetched. the sole fact that he saved that one canister from the explosion doesn't tell us anything about what he plans to do with it, and after this ep, we still don't have any more intel than we did last week. For all we know, he still might be planning to hand it off to the people who are the highest in the hierarchy in order to flush them out into the open. hand it off and equip it with a tracker? hand it off and rig it to explode into their faces? not hand it off at all. blackmail them instead of the government... we do know who he stole it for now, however: not for himself, but for the people for whom Starkwood has developed the weapon in the first place. they want it back, they want their technology, their "prototype" back, so they can keep developing it, or so they can use it, or just salvage what they can... but - who are they? If the weapon "wasn't intended for personal use" - what was it intended for? Clearly, bioweapons are rarely developed to combat the cockroaches in your garden, but we'll see.

But there are things that really disturb me about tony. I can't accept the amateurish mistakes he's been making all along. I mean, some of them could be explained away with him being away from field work, but some can't. all those things like smothering larry, not taking a kevlar vest, leading with his weapon on the boat & allowing jack to slam it out of his hand, and most recently, shooting himself with a 9mm which cries, "FBI service weapon" are simply stupid plot devices, used in every plot involving a "divert suspicion plotline", but a guy like Tony, a guy with tony's experience simply shouldn't be making them, not even in the heat of the war he's in. I'm not going to pick on him for shooting himself in the leg to divert suspicion and then within the same hour, stare at a convulsing jack with nothin in his eyes but coldness, thus confirming jack's suspicions, but... giving jack a false name of the "suspect"? couldn't he at least have chosen a name of a dead guy?... gee, tony... I thought you were smarter than that. at least whoever said back then that tony himself might be that "source" was obviously right. the interrogation never happened. too bad, actually. i kinda wanted to believe tony had hardened so much he could actually interrogate someone to death like jack has done in many instances.

still... after ep 18, I decided to look at Tony from all sides before proclaiming him anything at all, good or bad, god or devil, and the writers have so far succeeded in actually leaving things unclear. there is still more to come, and while I don't really believe that tony will come out the shining knight when all is said and done, there still might be some motivation and a goal other than what we know so far, and while I can't promise that I'll be able to "accept it" or "embrace it" or "love it", I'm willing to let things play out before crying Treason On Tony again.

after all, who said God is only good? isn't - for those of you who have a religion other than Almeidaism - god also revengeful? punishing? as such, I'd think that Almeida has the right to be all that, too. as long as we understand his reasons, and I think that when it all plays out, we will. maybe I should close with one sentence that really caught my attention:

"I have faith [Tony] 'll come through."

I instantly wondered if the wording of that sentence had anything to do with the Almeida Is God concept. So.... I know it's hard, and I don't know if I can, but.... maybe we should. Continue to have faith.

J_A · 2009-04-23 21:20:51

as far as the non-tony-related content goes, the ep rocked. it was really great, but more thoughts on that later.

24nut · 2009-04-27 21:28:03

I thought it was a good and solid episode, it was definatly one of those episodes that set up the rest of the season. I dont want to go into too much detail right now but the scene with Tony and Jack at the end was almost heartbreaking, it was actually quite painfull to watch.

First you could see it in Jack's eyes when he knew it was Tony all along, and then the next thing you see in his eyes is doubt, and whether it really is the bioweapon making him act and think like this. Such brilliant acting, the most painful bit is when Tony stood over Jack holding his medicine.

The acting between both of them this series has been brilliant but Kiefer has been outstanding, his eyes and maneurisms have shown more than words can say, some of my favourite Jack scenes of the series so far has come out of this season.

Well my theory on Tony took a battering, im now not sure where his loyalty lies, but what strikes me as strange is that he revealed to Jack that he was behind it and then left Jack, surely he knew that CDC would be able to slow his symptoms and he can then tell them what Tony said. Either Tony didn't care or he actually thought Jack was about to die there and then. I sure hope its the latter, because if Tony is willing to let Jack die then he is bad to the bone. After all Jack has done for Tony i still cant believe it myself, it was a brilliant episode but very very painful to watch.

Steveb · 2009-04-28 20:37:52

Very intriguing.

Nicely developing plotline that keeps the shades of grey theme that has been the underpinning of this season. Who do you trust? How can you be sure? What makes someones actions good or bad? etc. There's a reason this season has been marked in quality as the early seasons, and that is solely because it has dared to give everything and everyone a purpose.

But enough wishing I could write that well and back to reviewing. "Those who can" and all that...

So. Episode. Good. Very good in fact. Obviously the key factor is the Tony/ Jack storyline. I can't decide whether Tony is good or bad or not. Frankly, I don't care, it's bloody good TV. The arguments for him being good are mainly based on him making so many obvious errors that he knew Jack would see. There are arguments against that obviously, he killed Larry and was willing to kill FBI agents, but counter-argument is that Larry would have died anyway and that he made it very very easy for the FBI to see it was a setup if they'd dared look. It's difficult to call, and like the best politicians I'm going to sit comfortably on the fence. In fact, I've made myself a very nice fence sitting stool out of a bicycle seat, broken office chair and a discarded suitcase I found in the garage. I realise it's a lot of effort but I'm fully expecting to be perched here for another 5 weeks.

Anyway, where was I? Oh yeah, 24 that's right. Jack/ Tony stuff awesome. Kim's episode cameo was lovely. She's got a bloke who isn't a muppet for once- supposedly, although it is Kim, so I'm fully expecting him to be the guy in charge of this major conspiracy and have a pet cougar. But, I digress, Jack's a granddad, aw. If further proof were needed for him to survive the season, my friends I give you exhibit B (for baby obviously.) Oh, and it was a very touching reference to call the baby Teri.

Now, my episode bugbear. Dan, I'm fully expecting you to agree with me on this, why the bloody hell did they need to kill Hodges? Great Villain, possibly the best since Stephen Saunders, and they kill him with a flipping pill. On the plus side it was a red pill so he will now be able to see The Matrix for what it really is. But, it felt wasteful. The one plus side was that we got a great moment of acting from Jon Voight with his conversation with the soldier. The vindication of Starkwood's soldiers as patriotic American's who were great fighters, gave him has reasoning for doing everything he'd done. Once again, it's a flawed logic, but so amazingly realised in Voight's portrayal.

So, in a very Jerry Springer kind of way, my final thoughts. A much stronger eposde than the last couple of weeks, definitely setting it's stall out for the final five, and dare I use the "c" word yet? No, not that one. I mean "cliffhanger", shame on you for thinking otherwise. I know we say this every year, but there's no way they are going to solve everything in the last five hours. Can't see it happening; particularly if season 8 is going to be the last. And I know this has been slightly rantish in places, but those of you who've seen me review episodes for many a time, will hopefully appreciate what this means. I'm actually excited by this show again. Now let's hope it ends as well as I hope it does.

J_A · 2009-04-28 22:57:13

wait a second steve, you should know 24 well enough to know that hodges isn't dead until the white sheet falls over his face. his clock hasn't stopped ticking yet when ep 19 finished, he was just in the progress of dying. don't lose the faith.

as for tony, god, he's hot, he's hotter than hell, he's hotter than bloody hell. lol. you're right, the errors tony made were so goddamn obvious they could have been deliberate. i haven't thought that far. I think you're right, cause I'm fully convinced tony is neither working with starkwood nor the people above starkwood, he has his own agenda, but what that is, we don't know yet.

I'm totally excited about it, too, although it does HURT. and I mean I feel the knife twisting in my stomach when I watch. but that's why it's "bloody good TV" . if i were impartial to it, if there was no emotional investment, the show wouldn't be half as good.

i don't like them recasting people though, and two of those are coming up in the next ep. beware. lol. I dare you to jump in and tell me which two I mean! (next week of course)

hardy24 · 2009-04-29 19:58:44

Please don't hate me J_A, ... , This was up there with some of the best drama i've seen in ages. I can't remember the last time the show felt so tense, so personal, so immediate and so emotional. Add to that the show visually looking the best it ever has (much kudos to Michael Klick I believe a first time director on the show, but long time producer showing Cassar and co how it should be done and reviving the spirit of Hopkins' season 1 era-directing) and this was truly enthralling stuff.

They have this perfect tragic triangle (Jack, Tony, Renee). Jack's continual decline is heart breaking, added to by a spot on cameo by Kim which gives us "Baby Teri" and further proof that this show has grown up, last year that would have been played so badly it would have been embarrassing, in this episode has the intended effect without being melodramatic.

It's gonna sound strange but I feel more emotionally connected to Tony as a character than I ever have, the writing for him so beautifully moves through the greys without ever taking a sharp unrealistic deviation. I was honestly looking at Tony in this episode as an older brother who i'm striving to understand so I can help. It feels real.

And Renee, I couldn't take my eyes off her, great acting, touching all the right notes. She could so easily have been a photocopy of teri/kate/audrey - everything points to her being such, but she ends up being so much more complex than that.

I'd agree with you Steve on Hodges, although I do hope he isn't actually dead, though it seems like an odd slip for this shadowy organisation to make. If he is dead, it's a shame, he deserved the true villians death (the gun of Jack Bauer). He was unfortunately undermined just as Ira Gaines looked under threat as my all time favourite villian.

Either way, i'm gripped, i'm hooked, i'm addicted, I don't care how it comes just as long as the next fix is just as pure.

Once again J_A, don't hate me, I feel as if I've just knicked some of your stuff to have my next fix, and I feel kind of terrible about that, but it's not me, it's the drugs.

24nut · 2009-04-29 22:10:25

hardy24 wrote:

Please don't hate me J_A, ... , This was up there with some of the best drama i've seen in ages. I can't remember the last time the show felt so tense, so personal, so immediate and so emotional. Add to that the show visually looking the best it ever has (much kudos to Michael Klick I believe a first time director on the show, but long time producer showing Cassar and co how it should be done and reviving the spirit of Hopkins' season 1 era-directing) and this was truly enthralling stuff.

I agree, it was a really striking episode visually, i noticed that throughout and really enjoyed it, Michaek Klick did a great job.

Last edited by 24nut (2009-04-29 22:10:53)

J_A · 2009-04-30 15:57:55

lol. dan, this might surprise you, but as much as I'm in real physical pain about the developments Tony-wise, I completely agree with you that it's a brilliant move, it does feel real, and it's the best writing we've seen in years. There are two sides of the coin: sympathy and empathy. We feel both. Sympathy lies in the feelings long nourished for the character of Almeida, and in the things Tony does and our striving to understand him lies the empathy. I don't know if I've said this in this thread or in the one for ep 20, but NOTHING they've done with Tony's character so far feels out of character. It does feel real, it does fee. - as carlos likes to put it - "organic" and it's brilliantly acted. Seriously, people, s7 has now overtaken all the other seasons in my book. And if you've liked 19, just wait till you see 20. I think it's getting better and better each ep, and the season will end with the cherry on top, the fireworks of emotion and drama, I just hope Tony makes it out alive, cause just how cool would it be to take this into the next season? So, in summary, I don't hate you, and there's enough drugs for us all (I'm definitely addiced again and dreading the end of the season for the added reason that there will be no 24 until whenever the 8th season starts.

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#1 2009-04-21 08:34:26

Ep 7x19 discussion

#2 2009-04-23 21:19:53

Re: Ep 7x19 discussion

#3 2009-04-23 21:20:51

Re: Ep 7x19 discussion

#4 2009-04-27 21:28:03

Re: Ep 7x19 discussion

#5 2009-04-28 20:37:52

Re: Ep 7x19 discussion

#6 2009-04-28 22:57:13

Re: Ep 7x19 discussion

#7 2009-04-29 19:58:44

Re: Ep 7x19 discussion

#8 2009-04-29 22:10:25

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#9 2009-04-30 15:57:55

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