Ep 7x18 Discussion

J_A · 2009-04-14 10:59:11

good ep, great up, right up until about five minutes before the end.... WTF, dudes?

This was clearly a possibility from the start and I remember 24nut mentioning that it was suspicious that the writers turned tony into a good guy that soon in the season and we were thinking it's possible they could turn him again. now it's done. and I'm left wondering WHY?

why would they denounce everything almeida stood for, why would he, after having done so much to stop things from happening, suddenly want a weapon deployed? is tony the best deep cover mole ever? is this the BIG tie-in into season 1? tony's a better mole than nina? are they even going to suggest he's been a bad guy since Day 1? now, that would be surprising... and totally disintegrate the concept of Almeidaism and disappoint every drop of fandom in me....

well, I have to get going, and I'll elaborate on this when I come back, but....

WHY???

J_A · 2009-04-14 16:51:19

a new carlos interview popped up. im just disappointed, angry, betrayed here's what I want to comment on:

"Its got by far the best ending of any season yet. The last six episodes are even better than the front half of the season. There was a point with one of these final episodes where we halted production for almost a month so the writers could re-write some stuff."

see, thats kinda whats scary. carlos has always been game for participating if he thought the character was going somewhere different. and hell, having tony REALLY be a bad guy after all these years certainly WOULD BE something different. but i cant accept them annihilating everything tony stood for. im hoping, with every fiber of me, that this is a ruse, that theres an angle, but if tony was actually trying to fake being with the black operative just to stay alive, then he wouldnt have let the guy walk away with the bioweapon he would have taken it and killed the guy. as for moss, I think hes dead. I was thinking the exactly same things as kas, about the way tony killed him. a shot would have been easier, and the usual Mercy Shot strategy. smothering him to death that smells of personal revenge, indeed. and there will be subcutaneous traces on larrys face to prove he didnt just bleed out. goddamn it, why do they have to do this? right now, this whole play doesnt make sense. at all. but I can see how the writers thought it was a great idea. and if they stopped right around this time to get things right , then they probably figured out a way to deconstruct Almeida to the core. hell, I wouldnt even put it past them to suggest that hes been rogue since Day one like, the best Nina ever. a very, very deep cover mole please dont let that happen. please this has totally ruined my day. :-( . wheres that crying emoticon? please let there be an angle right now, Im just blank

J_A · 2009-04-14 20:13:18

fittingly, articles are popping up, interviews with carlos, regarding this newest twist.

here's two of them, with very minor spoilers

http://www.tvsquad.com/2009/04/13/carlos-bernard-the-tv-squad-interview

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/showtracker/2009/04/24-carlos-bernard-speaks-out-on-tonys-turn-for-the-worst.html

it doesn't look good, does it?

hockeyfan_94 · 2009-04-14 21:07:32

He definitely has NOT been a mole since Day One. I think that he became evil after Day Five (when he had lost EVERYTHING and, eventually, his life), which is what he said at the beginning of this season when he had to explain to Jack that he was undercover with Emerson's crew. I think that he never really turned good again at the beginning of this season and that he has been evil since being resurrected by Emerson and his crew. So I think Tony has only really changed once, and that he faked being on Jack's side for most of this season because he wanted to go undercover with the FBI and quasi-CTU (Jack included). He's really working for Starkwood and Hodges.

One thing I don't understand: Since Tony is evil, why would he detonate all of the bioweapon with the rocket fuel? He was the only FBI agent at Starkwood at that time, so he didn't have to appear to be on the FBI's side. He could have just refused to destroy the bioweapon and helped Starkwood launch the missiles. Why did he feel the need to destroy Starkwood's only major asset (so far as we know at least) and chase after the black operative with Moss? Couldn't he have simply stayed with the scientists at Starkwood?

J_A · 2009-04-14 23:22:31

He definitely has NOT been a mole since Day One. I think that he became evil after Day Five (when he had lost EVERYTHING and, eventually, his life), which is what he said at the beginning of this season when he had to explain to Jack that he was undercover with Emerson's crew. I think that he never really turned good again at the beginning of this season and that he has been evil since being resurrected by Emerson and his crew. So I think Tony has only really changed once, and that he faked being on Jack's side for most of this season because he wanted to go undercover with the FBI and quasi-CTU (Jack included). He's really working for Starkwood and Hodges.

oh, really? wow, thank you very much for explaining...

of course that's what they're implying! sure, tony has been playing bill, chloe, jack, he did , he fooled everyone. and now jack has EVERY RIGHT in the book to kill him. but what you can never understand is how it feels to me, how it feels to a tony fan who believed in the good of tony. you're not understanding the implications of that. the betrayal of the almeida. it doesn't FIT TONY'S CHARACTER. tony has never been about killing innocent people, and now they're making him into a nina myers... that's what's painful here. it's about the way they're playing with US, THE VIEWERS, telling us this and then that. you as a non-tony fan will never understand how it feels. and I can't try to explain. it' just too painful. they think it's a great story, it's a great turn for the season, it works for them, to hell with how it feels for tony's fans..... they never cared. but they sure got me fooled into thinking they did.

24nut · 2009-04-15 10:59:56

Something is telling me that Tony only did what he did in this episode to keep his motives secret, i dont know why but after still knowing this and thinking of a possible explanation, i think Tony is going to do a deal with someone to get the location of someone, to help him get revenge for Michelle, Tony wouldnt kill innocents, he may have done while he was with Emmersons crew but something inside me is saying that this is yet another twist, first he's bad, then good, then they do it again at the end of the season and reveal he has been ultimately good.

Also i think they have been trying to make it obvious that Tony is acting suspicious, all the looking around, all the disapearing and such. In episode 17 when Hodges said "i want my man back" they panned the camera towards Tony as if to keep you guessing, im sure this is there way of having everyone guessing all the time. It's been too obvious that there was something up, which leads me to think Tony isn't all bad.

Jon Casar's comment on the fox forum regarding the fan backlash of this ep is also interesting, leads me to believe he is almost saying, "yeah he's bad now but there is still 6 episodes left, so keep watching to see what happens"

Here is what he said:

"I'm still reading all the posts and have been all year. I'm happy the majority of you like season 7, because I think its one of our best.

Now as far as the Tony backlash, I am surprised. We knew there would be the 50/50 LOVE/HATE reaction. But what surprises me is how many of you are treating this episode as if it was the last one.

Have faith, we won't let you down, there are 6 hours left and lots of story to tell. You have two choices - one, "finish the book" or two, put the book down 6 chapters from the end and complain about how you didn't like it and it didn't make sense.

Be patient and keep watching or turn of 24 now, and forever just keep guessing at what it was all about."

JC

Im pretty sure that Tony is a good guy, i dont think they would turn him bad and have Jack chasing him down as the final day (season 8) and i dont think they would kill him off at the end of the season. I think that Tony is going to get revenge for Michelle, just makes me think that what i said about Logan possibly coming back may be true.

Last edited by 24nut (2009-04-15 11:04:25)

deadmanmoz · 2009-04-15 11:13:57

I'm sad

J_A · 2009-04-15 13:53:15

24nut, I hope you're right, and I hope cassar isn't leading us on. but let me counter with carlos's interview that came out just the other day. from what he says there's nothing ultimately good about tony going on. unfortunately.

let me quote a few excerpts:

Q:After tonight's episode, Tony is dead to me ... but I still want to know what his deal is.
Um, well, I cant really tell you whats ultimately behind his actions.
Q: Still pissed at the government for Michelle's death, I presume?
I think hes motivated by still being stuck in a place of anger and resentment. He still feels betrayed by the government. [later on, Carlos says there's more to it than just Michelle's death]
Q: So this has all been one big setup? The whole time he was just playing poor (now dead) Bill Buchanan?
Yeah, this has been his plan.
Q: That's pretty evil. Did you know Tony would turn out this way when the producers told you they were bringing him back to life?
We knew it was going to go in this direction, yeah. How it was actually going to play out, you never know. Its such a complex show to write. Theyll map out where they think a character is going to go and see if it actually plays with the story. But it was always in the back of our minds that this is where he was going. It was just a matter of how he was going to get there over the season.
....As the rest of the episodes play out, I found myself completely on Tony's side as far as what he believed he was doing. Its very strange.
Q: That sounds kind of scary.
(Laughs) It is a little scary, yeah. I cant go into what goes on in the episodes to come but I remember when we were done shooting, and all of the producers had seen the final cut of the final episodes, one of them looked at me funny and asked, Did you believe what was coming out of your mouth? And I said, You know what? Absolutely, I believed it. It made sense to me.

now this last part sounds very much like Tony is going nowhere but down, my friends. I suppose it's easy to put your faith in the writers and say "wait till ya see what happens" if you're not really invested in the show, or that addicted to Almeida as an ultimately good man, but... gosh, to me, at this point, it's terrible, and I have no faith left in the writers. I want them to surprise me but... I don't trust them. Not anymore.

you remember back when they first told us carlos was coming back and they were pushing the whole, "Tony's back, and he's bad" idea? and we were hoping they were f'n with us... Seems to me like they weren't. Though I hoped they were, and LOVED the season so far, everything was so plausible, so explicable. and now... to borrow a word from kasia of AIG : "I'm still mindfucked"... I don't know what to think.

but 24nut, do you remember back when you mentioned how cool it'd be to bring back logan? well, I see that as a possibility now. what if tony's real aim is to drag logan into the open, get revenge. cause logan is presumably being held prisoner at his own home, still at home arrest, and tony can't get to him. by threatening to release the gas, he could get someone to bring logan to him. but even so, even though logan was a bastard, he's still an ex president and jack will never allow that to happen. so however this plays out, whichever tony's shade of grey is (cause we do agree he's neither black nor white), I believe without a doubt that he'll wind up dead come 7x24. even in his weakened state, jack's still a match for him. and tony has nothign but revenge to live for. he won't go for any deals, cause a trial, the death penalty, it all doesn't mean anything to him. he's already dead - ever since he lost michelle.

24nut · 2009-04-15 14:47:14

I do remember what i said about Logan returning and i agree, it is seemimg more and more likely.

I think that Tony will try and trade the bioweapon for either Logan or information on him, i can imagine a standoff between Tony and Logan and when it comes down to it, Tony cant do it, i think this is very plausable, Tony isn't a murderer.

Either the shock will be him killing Logan, or him and Jack spare his life because he knows something about whats going to happen in a few weeks time (season 8). Now Tony and Jack could idulge in his knowledge or Tony still wants to kill him and Jack has to kill Tony, now that would be an emotional ending to the season. But i still cant see them killing off Tony.

But one thing is for sure, Tony is certainly not bad yet, we just dont know. But if i were to put my money on it, i would lay a hefty amount down on the fact that Logan will be a part of this somehow.

Last edited by 24nut (2009-04-15 14:47:45)

J_A · 2009-04-15 18:29:11

you know, cassar also made a second post on the fox forum, which i found thanks to your posting the first one, and he was all like, stop seeing things as black and white, and he's right. I mean, i don't think any one of us was ever just thinking of tony in this season as good OR bad, but the point is, there's a moral questionability about a lot of things, and tony's actions aren't any different. i dont' think that whatever he's doing is utterly evil - he has an ultimate goal that is in fact morally acceptable. but maybe the road there isn't.

hockeyfan_94 · 2009-04-17 22:52:59

"...is this the BIG tie-in into season 1? tony's a better mole than nina? are they even going to suggest he's been a bad guy since Day 1? now, that would be surprising... and totally disintegrate the concept of Almeidaism and disappoint every drop of fandom in me.... "
- J_A, 2009-04-14 00:59:11

I was just responding to that comment and trying to clarify things a bit for everyone, (including me). This whole thing is just such a shock - It's just not something that Tony would do! I just can't imagine Tony killing thousands, maybe millions, of people. It's just so out of character for him. I couldn't sleep at all on Monday night because of the Tony's betrayal.

J_A · 2009-04-18 10:30:58

yeah I totally understand you. I've been there, too. But there's nothing we can do other than sit and wait - i.e. wait for thhe season to end. there's much more to it than just tony's losing michelle, apparently, and although I'm still having trouble seeing this in tony's character, we don't have all the facts, so...

jon cassar also stated

Why do all the characters have to be Good or Bad. Especially on 24. We pride ourselves on all our characters having both qualities. Dont bad guys think theyre good.

Havent we constantly given our characters both traits. Is it a good quality that Jack has killed for revenge, or have you all turned a blind eye to that, because he is jack. He shot an innocent women in the knee (ask her if jack is good or bad).

Let it all play out, there are many story elements you know nothing about yet. Stop trying to make sense of it all with just the past, the future holds the answers which will answer all your questions.

And ask yourself this, are YOU good or bad?
And who are you going to disappoint by answering one way or the other. Wouldnt you rather people understood you then just judge you with one of two labels GOOD or BAD.

and those are true words, and it's essentially what I've been saying about tony's character this whole season. it was brilliant they didn't make him just good OR bad, they were always going for the grey, since episode 1. maybe he's just a little grey-er than we thought, and we need to wait for everything to be revealed before we make a conclusion as to just how grey he is. we still don't know what "pretty bad things" he did while working with emerson, and so, there's a lot more facts we still need to hear about.

hockeyfan_94 · 2009-04-18 13:10:20

Yeah. I was wondering when, or even if, we would ever find out what those "pretty bad things" were. Sounds like we'll find out soon.

J_A · 2009-04-18 16:39:49

probably.

J_A · 2009-04-21 08:34:40

linear predictions from ep 18 say that tony will let himself be caught by the FBI again, and claim that he tried to save larry, but larry was too badly shot and died on him, and then they'll take tony in. he needs to be at the FBI for some reason we still don't know, but logically, that's what would follow from the end of ep 18, since all he did in those horrible last 5 minutes was restore order - allowing the black guy to escape and making sure that larry didn't know what was going on - and couldn't tell. tony has a plan, but it didn't involve the FBI catching up with the black guy - but it also didn't involve allowing starkwood to launch those missiles. tony'll use the remaining canister to either extort something from the government, like handing over Logan or something else he wants, which doesn't make him much better than hodges, but... he could also try to blackmail the gov't into letting hodges go cause tony needs to go back undercover with him to uncover the rest of the conspiracy, or something along those lines.

24nut · 2009-04-21 09:39:05

after rewatching the episode, i still feel there is another reason Tony is doing this, there has to be, everyone has allready said how Tony is definatly the main villain now, how narrow minded some people are.

I thought Elisha Cuthbert did a really good job, when Jack asked her to leave that was a great scene. When Kiefer breaks down like that i get goosebumps, such amazing acting.

Steveb · 2009-04-22 19:37:17

Obviously the major talking point of the episode is the last five minutes, and I'll get to that shortly, but I think the episode as a whole was a bit out of character. Bringing Kim back and then sending her away again, presumably just to bring her back next week is a bit lifeless, and as Kiefer has signed on for season 8 then this experimental procedure is obviously -eventually- going to work.

Larry, suddenly becoming a massive supporter of Off the Book action seems like an attempt at Mason-esque redemption before they killed him off- if they have killed him off of course, as doing so suddenly leaves the show with no active field agents except Renee who seems to be quite comfortable in the office all of a sudden. Either way the character change for Larry was a bit trite.

And finally, the game-changer moment. Yes, in some respects we could see it coming, however, it doesn't ring true. It was Tony who put Jack on to the trail of Starkwood in the first place, so him suddenly going evil doesn't work. It can't be that black and white. The writers also aren't stupid, JC reads the forums and knows how popular Tony is, it's too implausible to suddenly alienate the vast majority of viewers- particularly those who didn't watch the show between 5x13 and 7x01.

One plus point; my anticipation for the next episode has never been higher!!!!

J_A · 2009-04-23 21:24:42

and as Kiefer has signed on for season 8 then this experimental procedure is obviously -eventually- going to work.

I disagree. season 8 is being murmured to take place only weeks after s7, which means that kim could still wind up dead, and with her, jack's only cure, even if they do bring her back next week. I'm still advocating leaving jack sick, just slowing down the progress of the disease, with or without stem cell treatment.

I didn't mind larry's character change, but I did mind him dying. I really liked him, and well, I was hoping to see more of him. but then, i'd also wanted more of emerson.

I've seen ep 19, and yeah, it is a very very good ep, but as for black and white, no, it isn't, and it's never been, but whether tony will turn any whiter, I really doubt it. maybe when you get to it, do take the time and read my longish thoughts on ep 19 in the appropriate thread.

hardy24 · 2009-04-26 20:42:32

Okay,

I've just seen this episode a couple of hours ago, was going to post immediately, but wanted it to sink in a bit.

To be completely honest I don't know what to think, I want to see the next episode now! and in truth they probably should have aired 19 straight afterwards, as they clearly seem confident that it would begin to answer some questions.

If this was last year (or s4 or s5) I would be massively rolling my eyes at this episode, it appears to completely undermine one of the best villians in Hodges the show has had recently. Kills off a character most where just starting to like & gives a painfully short cameo to a returning cast member.

That being said, I do believe this season has earned the benefit of the doubt, so i'm gonna come down on the "there being brave, this is going to pay off beautifully" side of my opinion.

So, the positives. The final 5 minutes did come as a massive shock, jaw hitting the floor etc, biggest shock in a long time which is one of the things this show always did well. Tony generally looking pretty bad-ass (before and after the reveal). Obviously we're all pretty sure of how Jack's dying will turn out, but the '24' of previous years would have had a ADD attack by now and either forgotten the whole thing, solved it already or just said he was suddenly alright enough to be back in the fight, they are keeping his condition on a nice consistent down curve and it's fascinating to see Kiefer play that. Despite what has been said about Kim's cameo, atleast they've not invented an attack on FBI to keep them together for an episode, it felt more real.

Other points/possibilities
- Could Emmerson still be alive?, I wasn't entirely convinced by his death and since it was Tony who "killed" him, that could have fairly easily have been staged.
- I see two distinct scenarios for the final episodes, either Tony turns again & Jack dies (or will die in s8) or the opposite Tony is indeed "bad" & Jack survives (or thirdly Tony Bad & Jack dies). I think the second option leaves open some interest possibilities for s8 as we could have Tony escaping and Jack chasing.

Okay, now mercifully have just 2 days to wait for next episode.

J_A · 2009-04-26 22:36:22

now you're in the better position than I was, I had to wait a full week on that ep and it was nagging at me, eating me up inside. unfortunately, ep 19 did nothing to resolve that feeling.. on the contrary, without giving away plot points, I'm having this feeling the writers are going for this jack-tony showdown in 7-24 and we're going to lose tony for good. despite everything that's been said, despite jon cassar's urging us to keep the faith, I'm really not sure if I can. it's just physical pain at this point.

I'm not sure about emerson, it's interesting you're raising that point, since I hadn't given it any thought. however, since it was jack and tony who had "got the bodies out of sight" together, I'm guessing emerson is as dead as possible.

as for kim, I'm sure we'll see more of her, so don't dispair - and the way this is going, the original fear I had (that they'd have tony hurt or threaten to hurt or even kill kim), is resurfacing, as that scenario starts to reform itself in my mind.

and sadly, i don't see tony turning again, as much as I'd like to - he's too far gone. I think the only thing we'll be given is a justification of his actions (after ep 19, there IS little window for turning, as I've mentioned in the appropriate thread), but I simply don't think they'll do it, since this whole back and forth might be too much eventually.

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